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How Many Pre-Marital Lovers Is Too Many?
October 26th, 2012
I find the topic of Sex so confusing, intriguing, beguiling, embarrassing and hilarious that I’ve written entire plays about it.
My friend Maggie (who gave me permission to write this) is a volunteer at her children’s elementary school in Seattle, Washington. She’s on the crunchy-granola side, makes all her kids’ clothes, bakes the most delicious, homemade rustic loaf and corn bread. Her beauty is natural and understated, there’s rarely a trace of make-up on her face and she’s been a dedicated wife for seventeen years.
Maggie does not exude Sex Goddess, yet recently she told me she’s had “somewhere between 30 and 40″ lovers in her life. And her husband, Mark, has had three, including Maggie.
Which made me think, She’s had too many lovers and he hasn’t had enough.
Maggie told me Mark doesn’t judge her, but he also doesn’t want to know the exact number of lovers she’s had. He said he can understand her sexual history based on where she came from; a small, West Texas, blue-collar town where booze and boredom were rampant. A home where her parents divorced when she was fourteen and she was left pretty much to her own devices.
It’s clear that, like me, Mark thinks 30-plus lovers is too many for a woman to accrue by the age of 35. That there should be some kind of excuse for it.
Maggie must have sensed my judgment, even before I knew I was judging her. She explained that she wasn’t “just slutty,” she was looking for “the one” and just made bad choices in men. She told me she saw each lover as a potential boyfriend and there were no one night stands.
That’s when I became consciously aware I was judging her; my kind, sweet friend who is an enviably fantastic wife and mom. I decided to stop, step off my pedestal and look at my own sexual history.
In my 20s I went through a promiscuous phase, but I don’t automatically search for what was wrong with me, like I did with Maggie. Because my number is smaller than hers, (Mom, Dad, Henry, look away), between 10 and 20.
When I stopped to check my unconscious, judgey, little brain, I discovered that I think my number is more romantic than Maggie’s. More tasteful. I see myself as a sexual adventurer. A libertine. A sewer of wild oats. A notch-on-the-belt kinda gal. And someone who’s had enough experience to be married now without wondering What if?
Then, last night, while on the phone with my college roommate Jill, I was talking to her about Maggie and me and told her exactly how many lovers I’d had. Silence. Then, “Wow, Shan.”
Wow, Shan? Really?
“Well, how many have you had?” I asked, suddenly feeling like a slutinka.
“Three,” she said in a voice that suggested that was a much more reasonable number and that I was, indeed, a strumpet.
So I wonder where I fall on the Sex Judgement Belief Spectrum:
I think more than 30 lovers for a single woman past 35 is kind of shocking.
I think less than five lovers for a single man past 35 might signal repression.
I’m harder on women than men when they’ve had more lovers, and harder on men than women when they’ve had less lovers despite my feminism. Apparently my subconscious isn’t immune to cultural prejudices.
I (hypocritically?) don’t want my daughters to have as many lovers as I’ve had for many reasons, unwanted pregnancy, disease and broken hearts are at the top of the list. Still, I’m glad for the experiences I had. Even the really lame ones (and there were some) are stories I can’t help laughing over now. Or maybe I laugh now because I’m in the safe harbor of a man who really loves me?
So I’m taking a poll to see where my judgements fit in. What do you think?
1. Is there such a thing as Casual Sex without casualties?
2. What number is too many lovers for a woman? What number is too few? Is it possible to have too few?
3. What number is too many lovers for a man? What number is too few? Is it possible to have too few?
4. Do you still judge women who had broad sexual histories more than you judge men?
5. Does a man feel like less of a man if his wife has had more lovers than him? (Henry doesn’t want to know my exact number, either.)
You may skip to comments now, or read an excerpt of a monologue from my One-Act Play, But That Wasn’t Sex, written while I was trying to understand my promiscuous phase. The character is describing an unusual sexual encounter.
MAUREEN: One time, after, when I’m craving that shower, just hot water on my body, him gone please. Well this guy is laying next to me all spent and everything and I’m thinking, Would he take off for Chrissakes? When I feel his fingers real gentle on my eyelids, real soft, just barely touching. And then he kisses each eye, just once and tears slide out onto my cheeks. I couldn’t stop ‘em, I didn’t know they were comin’ from me. And he says, Just be sweet little girl, just gentle down, like I’m a horse or a creature of nature or somethin’. That was the only time my heart hurt a little, this burning achey pain way down deep, let me know somethin’ was sliding right by me. Somethin’ I couldn’t reach…couldn’t get to. I wanted to…but I just couldn’t get to it … But that wasn’t sex.Share and Enjoy
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You would think I’m repressed, but I’m content with my number. All my oats are tame.
Tame oats are so tasty!
My number is smaller than your friend but more than 3. lol My husband likes to tease me about it cause his number is around 3. I had two longer relationships in college and when those broke up I took the opportunity to find out what dating is like. Broke my heart a few times, but I feel like it was good for me to date different types of men.
In the end, I wish we could stop judging women for their # of partners. Sometimes women just want sex and that should be okay. We don’t judge men who play the field, but when it’s a woman we do. As long as everyone is practicing safe sex and has consenting partners it’s all good. ^_^
Well, I’m 53 and my number is between 20 and 30. I wouldn’t dream of telling my husband that number, he would be shocked. I think it just depends on the person. I didn’t have any one night stands and like your friend, I went into each encounter thinking they would be “the one.” My, was I ever wrong. Finally, when I was in my late forties, I met my husband who is “the one.” Yippee!!!
Lucky you! And you definitely know what you’re not missing.
I don’t think the number is as important as the quality of the romps.
Truer words have never been spoken.
If my first marriage hadn’t ended ten years ago, my number would be 1. And although I seem to have a pattern of marrying the men I sleep with, I think I’ll be OK if the count stops at 2.
Two is my lucky number. xo
1.Yes! Casual sex requires completely honest communication (or anonymity, which is the same in a way). And since our attitudes are fluid, a pair who have a casually sexual relationship need to re-evaluate their own feelings from time to time. Separately, of course.
2. I think each woman is different, so the right number of sexual partners can only be judged by that woman. I don’t regret any of my (scandalous number of) partners, and am very glad some of them never turned into boyfriends. It was fun, and nobody got hurt (badly). On the other hand, I confess to thinking that my friends who’ve only ever slept with their husbands have missed out. Then again, I’ll never know what it’s like to be them – one lover might be perfect if it’s the right lover.
3. See above. Since sex is territory that each couple navigates together, there is value in mapping every part of it. Inexperience only lasts so long. If I found that my partner was repressed, but willing to explore new attitudes, then we’d have fun opening up to each other.
4. No. The concept of sluttiness is so damaging – to both the label-er and the labelled – in that it creates a system where women are the guardians of virtue and men are the louche corruptors. I find it distasteful, except in role-play.
5. A man might feel that way, but he’d never know because I’d never tell.
It’s none of his business.
I’ve been happily monogamous for 12 years, and I think that my husband has had fewer partners than I, but am not sure. We’ve never compared lists. At this point, I don’t think I could remember all the names!
I will say that my promiscuity was part of some emotional emptiness I felt, and was not totally healthy. But I don’t regret it – I had to find my own way, after all. I will tell my daughters that sex isn’t love, although it is one expression of love. It’s not something you give to a boy or man (or woman); it’s something you do with another person to bring each other pleasure and joy. And it carries many heavy responsibilities.
Meredith — I am printing out your comment and keeping it to read to my daughters when they’re of age. I love your beliefs and attitudes around sex. They seem so natural and down-to-earth. I also have to look up the word “louche.” I love when comments make me think more deeply about what I’ve written and show me the unexamined places in my life.
Shannon – Aw, shucks! I’ve been reading your blog for almost a year, and I look forward to every update. Your writing is a pleasure to read! I especially love your feelings about beauty – and how women feel about their own bodies. I wish to have your courage.
Hi Meredith — when it comes to body image I’m definitely a work in progress. But thank you so much for letting me know you enjoy my blog. It means the world to me. My site went down for about four days a while back and I missed it the way you miss a child. Well, not quite that much, but that’s when I realized this is really a labor of love.
Well, I have had many a romp in my college years. These all happened in the 2 years between my “highschool boyfriend of 2 years” and my “college boyfriend-now husband of 14 years”. He doesn’t know how many and would be shocked if he did. After reading your post I’m sort of shocked at myself! *cough*slut*cough*
I agree with you. I don’t think we should judge women on the number of lovers they’ve had YET I DO IT. In my case, a double standard.
Once I was walking on the beach with my mom and we were counting her lovers. She was telling me their names, when and where. We both couldn’t stop laughing. She married most of her lovers (4), but there were a few more from her backpacking days in Europe. As she moved into the water to swim in the ocean I meandered back to my towel when suddenly I heard her shout something. “Antonio!” The one she’d forgot. I laughed so hard I peed. Favorite memory with mom.
All my oats were sewn after my second marriage separation. I went from 2 to 6. I did this in the span of 4 years. I thought I was missing something. I am glad I did. I love sex but, being a bit old-fashioned, I convinced myself that I had to have a deep connection to be intimate with the men. For me, sex obscures a real soul mate. I think he’s the one because of the intimacy. Silly me. At 61, who’s counting?
Denise you are bold to share. I’m always curious about other people’s thoughts and ideas about sex.
I don’t think the number should matter for either a man or a woman. As long as your having safe sex and you take care not to share something you shouldn’t then that number should be whatever you are comfortable with.
I had a girlfriend that just plain loved sex so she was always on the prowl I never told her she was a slut But there were times that I thought whoa girl you are a nymphomaniac !
Of course I never trusted her around my boyfriends either. I thought my sexuality was much more acceptable than hers. I like to think of myself in terms of that Jimmy Hendrix song “Are You Experienced” What are my numbers ? I plead the fifth.
I had a girlfriend like that too! I had to keep my boyfriend on Lojack.
Many many years ago I made a list of all my lovers up ’til then – and it was a very long long list. Longer than any man’s list I have known – and no, I don’t share it, but sometimes bring it out and smile to myself. For me the sexual experience was like religion – such a mighty high, such ecstasy, such visions! Men are like a delicious fruit – their smells, their skin, their lips, their penises – how could I not want to eat them and enjoy them all? Sex is always a joyous thing to me – lots of fun and laughter – never a complicated thing. To please and take pleasure – a lovely time and costs nothing. For me it was never wrapped up in morality, or coupled with ‘commitment. I never understood people who placed conditions on sex – it is such a basic need, like eating and breathing. I always saw it as my ‘needing to rut’. And I agree with Meredith – labeling women who truly enjoy sex is very damaging – harking back to men’s fear of women’s sexuality – “if women enjoy sex we will lose control of them” – Hell yeah! PS – I do believe in serial monogamy – the best sex of all.
Lisa — I love your frankness. I don’t know if women are as lusty as men, having never been a man, but I can attest that there were many years where the thought of celibacy just because I didn’t have a significant partner never crossed my mind. I wish I’d been a little less guilty about the casual sex I had so that I could actually enjoy it more. Hindsight.
After being married for 17 years I had a lot of practice before I married my one true love. It does not matter if your number is 1 or 100 it is how you live your life and raise your family when you settle down. Not sure why you and Jill never wanted a 3som with me?????
Oh Tal how I love you. Jill and I discussed having a threesome with you, but your self-confidence was already too big! Among other things. xo
My worry with how seemingly promiscuous the younger crowd is these days — is once you are used to sleeping with whomever might fit your fancy, how are you ever really content with monogamy? Just a question.
I think it’s a really good question. Speaking for myself, I’ve noticed the longer I’m married the better the sex because there’s more trust to try new things without feeling judged.
The best advice I ever got from my mother was, “Don’t ever tell a man how many lovers you have had.” I am pretty sure that she meant I should tell each new person I was a virgin, but I took it to mean I should lie and lie big. Twenty years ago, the man I am currently married to asked me how many partners I have had. I said, “Counting you?” and then I started throwing up fingers and asking questions, “Do threesome count as one or two? How about orgies? What about the premature ejaculators–does it count if I didn’t get off? What about drunken one night stands that I don’t really remember? Do female partners count? What if I got paid, but I didn’t enjoy it?” Then I declared, “ten. no wait, twenty-five. Okay, forty-seven. Less than a hundred…maybe more than a hundred…okay, okay. I was a virgin when I met you, I never had sex with my ex-husband.” My TRUE count is 7, but my husband still doesn’t know that.
Deborah — I had no idea what a naughty vixen you are!!
But 7 makes me feel like a Slutina. Sigh.
Ah, what a complicated topic. I’ve married all the men I’ve slept with (2) and my husband says I’m his first. We’ve been married 22 years. I sometimes wish one or both of us had some more experience. After all these years, it still seems like we don’t know what we’re doing. Sure, we’ve got the mechanics down to a T, but the rest is questionable. I think in my next life I’ll live a bit more. And yes, I do tend to judge women with higher numbers more harshly than men. Thanks for making me realize that. I’ll work on changing that immediately. Thanks for always making me smile when I read your blog. The Woman Formerly Known as The Good Girl (TWFKATGG).
Hi Karen — thanks for all your kinds words!
Hm….I’m somewhere around 100. I’m not proud but it doesn’t bug me that much either. My best friend was at 120 in our second year of university. In our social circle, that was totally normal. Being in a relationship with the same man for 3 year sort of makes me feel like I’ve erased what I had become.
Alicia you are bold!
**sigh** What if the number is 10 and ALL of them were lousy? Geez – like looking for the winning lottery ticket.
When I was single I learned that banging chicks wasn’t really where it was at. Or at least it never gave me the fulfillment I needed. Some guys never learn this. But most do.
I have to admit, while reading this article, I had the same questions as Deborah… What has to happen to count as a lover? Honestly, true P to V contact? Then, count me as a big fat 2, married both. In sequence, not simultaneously. My first wife, she started counting while we were dating, but I found that I really had no interest in knowing at all. Seemed like it was going to be a big number. I kind of liked that she chose me, at least for 20 years. My second, well, she told me and I believed… we are a bit more matched in the number of individuals. What does it mean? I think nothing, except they both wanted me. I was happy with each of them, and do not feel I have missed a thing. My question for Shannon is, how many more do you think you may have? I hope I never have another.
Why are we thinking about this? It aint none of our business. Stop judging other people everyone.
You know it just came up in casual conversation with a group of ladies one night. And when my friend mentioned her number we were all a little struck by it. I realized I had some subconscious judgements about it. This wasn’t meant to be a bitchy, catty article, rather one that points out how automatically we’re programmed to judge. I agree we should stop.
Shannon, you know where I stand on this subject. I am neck in neck with your number (maybe one or two more, lol). I don’t regret a thing and I consider them valuable, rich, and necessary experiences, given that I hooked up with my hubby Tom when I was 23!
I’m glad to know you’ve out-notched me. But boy you worked quick! Miss you!
[...] the recent post, “How Many Pre-Marital Lovers is Too Many,” Shannon explores this idea–judging people based on their number of lovers. But what [...]
[...] they’d be willing to discuss their sex life with me (as I’ve done with other marrieds Here and Here). I figured there was NO WAY they’d agree. As Mormons, wouldn’t they feel discussing [...]
Sorry for getting to this late, but I just was directed to your website via the HuffPost
1. Casual sex may induce casualties, depending on who is being casual and who is not.
2. There is no such thing as too few or too many lovers for women, in my view. It just depends on the person.
3. Same thing for men. My number, as a 57 yr old man is about 50 before I married, about 10 more during. But that really means nothing as to today.
4. It doesn’t matter to me how many sex partners women have had, I judge them by who they are, by their character.
5. If a man feels insecure about himself regarding the number of his wife’s lovers, then he has lost sight of himself as a man. He should be very very happy instead.
Interesting subject. My wife says she had about 10 before marriage, and another 10 or so during our marriage. Which is fine. Quality, not quantity. And shouldn’t we all be more open about our sex lives?
I am 52 y.o man and married 20 years. Our respective numbers are 1 & 1.
Long time ago I would judged you all so much. I believed in Madonna/whore syndrome. Now I know better and think multiple lovers for women is the right thing. I would prefer my daughters not to do what we have done. Because reading these comments fills me with regret as much as I love my wife and have lots of sex with her.
Sex is a need just like food and should be enjoyed within the boudaries of safety and consent as many others have mentioned. I would be happy if my wife had lovers before me as I feel have limited her life experience and pleasure. More than me would be fine as long as I had had a few as well.
I think there such as thing as too few lovers for most people , because eventually you will wonder about what was missed. Like I have felt in recent years.
Does any body have any suggestions. Not sure if she would be into swinging although she does seem to want to have other men find her attractive as a kind of affirmation.
Shannon
Just stumbled across your blog today and looking forward to reading more. You have had an interesting life.
It’s sad that there still is a double standard on this issue.
Finally to Rick
Did you increase your post marriage count via swinging. Was that an easy decision for you both
Hi Toby — sex is , no pun intended — a sticky issue. I’m grateful I sowed some oats, having said that I’ve realized the more safe I feel in my marriage the more freedom in the bedroom. When the kids are gone. Which isn’t very frequently. But still.
haha.. I’m gonna give it a go… Don’t judge me. ;-p
1. Is there such a thing as Casual Sex without casualties?
*Honestly I don’t think thats true because for some God forsaken reason our human beings have this hard wired emotional bonding that comes with sex either from one parter or the other or both. We don’t separate emotion like animals can. Well, some men can do that but we let’s not discuss that..
2. What number is too many lovers for a woman? What number is too few? Is it possible to have too few?
* Honest, I’ve had way more than I should even mention starting from a way younger age than is appropriate so I don’t think I’m in any place to judge. Lets just say, the “right” number should be when she feels completely sexually confident x2 just to be sure.
3. What number is too many lovers for a man? What number is too few? Is it possible to have too few?
*My current boyfriend (don’t judge me… lol) has had way much more experience than me.. he was extremely promiscuous once. But they say the rule of thumb is take the number a man gives you and divide it by 10 and… I think thats it. I’m not good with math. He’s just really great in bed.
4. Do you still judge women who had broad sexual histories more than you judge men?
Sometimes depending on the details. If once a stripper that used to pole hop in Vegas, I might be more judgemental than someone normal like me who had one too many drinks on the party bus. Just saying.
5. Does a man feel like less of a man if his wife has had more lovers than him? (Henry doesn’t want to know my exact number, either.)
* Only if he’s insecure. I never tell my number. Ever. Even if they ask. Then lie. Or make a hellova chicken parmesean for dinner. They’ll drop the subject eventually I think.